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Post by acdaddy0 on Sept 8, 2014 14:45:18 GMT -6
I'm thinking about replacing my black rubber keel rollers and bow stops with nylon or poly rollers just due to the black marks the rubber ones put on hull. I have eight foot bunks on trailer and two 12" keel rollers, one at stern and one at bow. I don't need to winch the boat up as it drives all the way to winch stops. I have to do some minor repair to keel this winter with some MARINE RX and would like some input on keels guards and which type of roller is best. All input is appreciated.
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 8, 2014 18:55:22 GMT -6
if this were my trailer, i would have the yellow(ish) (thermo plastic rubber) rollers on there and i would move those bunks closer so the boat sits higher on the trailer off the keel.
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Post by Juan on Sept 9, 2014 6:40:41 GMT -6
Looks to me like you've got the trailer set up the way it should be...with the boat's weight sitting on it's keel. The bunks are for guidance and stabilization and aren't supposed to hold the boat's full weight. If it were me, I'd change out the black rubber rollers. I had to change mine for the same reason, they tend to leave skid marks, especially when they get some age on them.
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 9, 2014 8:24:40 GMT -6
The bunks are for guidance and stabilization and aren't supposed to hold the boat's full weight. I would be careful who you say this to, especially when you get into boats with deeper v’s and bigger trailers that don't have the rollers on them, or even pads for that matter. I was always taught the keel rollers, or center/keel bunks (many different terms used for them) are for guidance when your pulling the boat onto the trailer and, on the smaller trailers, protection due to the amount of trailer you can generally get into the water (makes up for not getting the cross members far enough into the water). Two different schools of thought here.
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Post by freezerfiller on Sept 9, 2014 10:07:46 GMT -6
Those amber rollers last 3x longer than rubber and don't mark the boat.
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 9, 2014 11:40:56 GMT -6
LoL Southern, always remember that the only person who is correct is the person who owns the boat everything else is just opinion (but seeing something here that could be a potential saftey issue i had to give my thoughts and working for marina's, hauling boats and having a trucking company I have picked up a few "best practices" over the years LOL). We do have to be very careful what we say here when sharing our insights because we are responding to one person, but there are many other readers. Lets, please for a second, step away from boat safety and protection and look at trailer protection and on road safety. A few things to keep in mind 1) your boat can move sideways and front to back when on the trailer (yes even if its strapped down and especially if your going from the eyes on the stern to the trailer rather than over the top) 2) If your boat is not centered and stable on the trailer (ie: more weight to one side) it can break shocks, blow tires and (worst) swing the trailer from the back of you. 3) Weight shifts of the load will do the same thing. When your boat sits on those bunks it drops in and basically wedges it in potion at two points that are equal, apart and pushing force through the boat back into each other; this is keeping it stable. A boat resting on its keel can cause instable and make it “wobble” side to side. Any weight pushed onto the keel takes pressure off the bunk giving the boat less stability on the two outer supports of the load, a situation no driver should be in. Not even thinking about blown tires, shocks and many other things is the image of a load falling of the trailer after an aggressive movement caused by another driver on the cell phone or the weight shifting so aggressively that it swings the trailer and you end up on a guard rail (yes have see this too with an enclosed trailer where someone didn’t secure the load. Weight on the keel is not a good situation in any light. Now for some more fun and informational words. Saying they are the same thing is correct. Most don’t know, but the term "float on trailer" actually comes a trailer brand name; much like many call a tissue a Kleenex (Kleenex is a brand/company). Essentially, what makes a trailer a "float on" or "drive on" is the ramp, how far can you get the trailer into the water, not it being a bunk or roller trailer. While there are technicalities to this making some trailer setups easier than others, it is the ramp. When I had my 220cc I had a roller trailer or when I haul boats with a roller, (all rollers no bunks), if I can get it in far enough (the ramp had a good enough angle or the tide is high enough) I dunk the trailer and bring the eye right to the block. Why? You don’t have to crank the winch, worry about the prop when powering on or worry about the truck going for a swim from the back and forth force when powering on (yes I have eye witnessed this happen). Having the rollers does make life easier, especially when I’m taking the boats on and of to bottom paint them (don’t have to lift as high when taking off and don’t have to back in perfect when putting it back on) or the marina is using a lift to get it off, but if you can dunk it then dunk it. Now, bunk trailers are the same exact thing. If you can get it far enough under water based on tides and ramp to float it then that’s your best bet. If you cant then you do the same thing as the roller, get it as far as you can and then winch it the rest of the way up (yes the boat will slide on the bunks unless they are sitting on steel or something ridiculous). Back to the reason for those center rollers, and Southern glad you touched on the breaking from the weight (but hopefully the bunks are supporting enough weight were if it breaks the boat is supported). Bunks are for protection and also functionality when your putting the boat on the trailer. You generally will not see them on roller trailers for our applications because the rollers and series of brackets sit the boats much higher on the trailer and “lift” it when they tilt while your pulling it on; some rollers do have them too tho. On the bunks (bunk trailer), and especially the shorter ones where you cant get much of the trailer in the water without sending your car in, the rollers help you get the boat on the trailer without dragging the keel on the cross member and guide the boat to center. Sometime you will see a bunk or roller trailer with several keel rollers down the center of the trailer. These are designed to get the boat out of VERY shallow water and I’m talking shallow where just about the only thing in the water is the keel roller, but once the boat is sit on the trailer, much of the weight is on the bunks. Long winded and friendly advice, but I hope i taugh some people a few things here and any corrections to what i have said please dont hesitate to share!
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985crabs
Captain
2000 V1900 Bay Series, Yamaha 150 Carb. 2
Posts: 1,311
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Post by 985crabs on Sept 9, 2014 11:44:07 GMT -6
My first boat was a Whaler. When it came time to refurbish my trailer, I referenced this article: continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/trailering/trailer.htmlI would imagine the recommendations should hold pretty true across brands. I put the self-centering amber rollers under the keel and it was absolutely painless to load. Oh, had to keep the bow eye hooked until it was in the water because it would roll right off on a grade. They seemed quite durable and didn't leave any skidmarks. You really don't want skidmarks, especially on your hull. Tight Lines
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Post by Juan on Sept 9, 2014 13:54:31 GMT -6
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 9, 2014 15:00:05 GMT -6
We have alot more in common than you know if you are a real estate appraiser. The trailer i have for mine right now is a bunk like you had with two bunks and thats it (the way alot of the bunks are made now). The key with this setup is to get the bunks to sit on the lifting strakes, that will keep it in good postion after you strap it down. Once you get it up there its set and stable and will not go anywhere. (writing that i am thinking about the guy I saw yesterday with the matterss on top of the mini van that was held down but bungie cords at 65mph And you are very right in saying the hulls are much stronger nowadays. We life 35 foot vessels with six to 8 hydraulic skids on the hydro trailer that support the whole boat and if you go down to florida you will still find boats that are lifted with the front and stern eyes rather than a bunk lift.
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Post by Juan on Sept 9, 2014 15:16:27 GMT -6
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Post by Juan on Sept 9, 2014 15:23:39 GMT -6
The bunks are for guidance and stabilization and aren't supposed to hold the boat's full weight. I would be careful who you say this to, especially when you get into boats with deeper v’s and bigger trailers that don't have the rollers on them, or even pads for that matter. I was always taught the keel rollers, or center/keel bunks (many different terms used for them) are for guidance when your pulling the boat onto the trailer and, on the smaller trailers, protection due to the amount of trailer you can generally get into the water (makes up for not getting the cross members far enough into the water). Two different schools of thought here. If you'll notice the picture, the trailer has bunks and keel rollers... My comment was directed at the question asked and for the trailer shown. If the keel rollers are meant just for guidance when pulling your boat on the trailer and the weight sits on the bunks, as you imply, why even have keel rollers at the front of the trailer since the bunks would keep them from ever being used?
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 9, 2014 15:28:13 GMT -6
lol they dont count....UK website and i dont trust anything outside this country
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 9, 2014 15:37:37 GMT -6
Juan i think we need side chat or a phone conversation for this one lol its going on toooooooooooooo long. To answer your question, again on the smaller trailers the crossmembers may not submerged, or submerged enough, when your putting the boat on and off the trailer. When your on the ramp and the trailer is angled into the water there is a chacne the front of the keel can hit that cross member. So....you put a roller there to get the boat on and if its doing its job will will probably see black scuff marks where that roller makes contact. Hence me saying guadiance and protection. The website you posted, that is a roller trailer with keel rolers. It is very clear (given the width of the rollers and the depth of the crossmembers) that trailer is made for a beamy boat with a fairly flat bottom. Im not sayin you are wrong, its your boat, all i was doing was offering advice based on the large things (boats, machines, cars, trucks) i have moved in my days. If you want to put the boat on the keel roller, its your boat and you can. If the readers of this fourm think your technique is better than mine, then they will use yours. last comment from me
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Post by Juan on Sept 9, 2014 16:10:16 GMT -6
Juan i think we need side chat or a phone conversation for this one lol its going on toooooooooooooo long. We don't need no stinking side bar... I'm right and you're wrong! That's all there is to it!. LOL.. Just kidding.. I actually agree with your opinion to an extent. I posted my opinion based on acdaddyO's trailer design and what I believe is the majority opinion... Now, here's my personal opinion: I think it depends on the trailer and the hull design. It used to be popular opinion that a boat's keel should support the majority if not all of a boat's weight and bunks were there for guidance on and off a trailer and stabilization while sitting on the trailer... but I think that rule of thumb came to be a long time ago when boats weren't built as well as they are these days and there were issues with wooden stingers warping under weight loads.. With the newer boats not having wooden stringers any longer and much better fiberglass construction, I honestly don't think it makes much difference either way. My thinking is that since a boat's weight is evenly distributed on the hull when it's in the water, the weight should be as evenly distributed over all rollers and bunks when it's on a trailer.. back to the original question: I'd still change out the rollers so you don't get the black scuff marks on the keel.
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Post by acdaddy0 on Sept 9, 2014 17:25:35 GMT -6
Thanks for all your input, I agree with aspects of both scenarios. I was mostly wondering if the harder nylon rollers would damage keel gel coat more than the rubber ones due to less cushion. As far as drive on verses float on. I float my boat off, meaning submerging more trailer till stern floats, but I drive it on with less trailer in water so it contacts that front roller centering it to the winch stop, I don't have to winch the boat up at all, just hook it on. The boat hugs the bunks , I don't strap the back and it doesn't move while trailering. Also like the idea of raising the front buks a bit but then roller wouldn't serve any purpose?? I'm thinking it is a balancing act between the bunks and front roller as the boat trailers and inch clear of the back roller. Maybe I should raise the front of the bunks just a smidgen so keel would just clear it when fully forward? Also I do allot of beachin with the kids. Anyone got a stick on keel guard?
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Post by freezerfiller on Sept 9, 2014 17:56:21 GMT -6
Wow this thing went off into left field... But I have yet to hear any arguments other than "cheaper" that suggests the black rollers offer any benefit over the poly/amber rollers.
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Post by acdaddy0 on Sept 10, 2014 14:35:32 GMT -6
Yeh, I saw! Guess I poked a hornet's nest. Gonna try a little tweak and peak next time I got boat off trailer.
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Post by acdaddy0 on Sept 10, 2014 17:05:51 GMT -6
Thanks SC, My father and I have bought a couple of whalers back in the day, took everything off the top and flipped them over in the yard, fixing hull scratches and so forth. Not afraid of that kind of work. Thanks for the input on keel guards, I kinda thought they would peel off even though 3M has a great adhesive . I don't abuse the keel but was concerned about it after I marine RX the blemishes would the harder rollers break out the repair?
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Post by acdaddy0 on Sept 18, 2014 15:53:54 GMT -6
We have alot more in common than you know if you are a real estate appraiser. The trailer i have for mine right now is a bunk like you had with two bunks and thats it (the way alot of the bunks are made now). The key with this setup is to get the bunks to sit on the lifting strakes, that will keep it in good postion after you strap it down. Once you get it up there its set and stable and will not go anywhere. (writing that i am thinking about the guy I saw yesterday with the matterss on top of the mini van that was held down but bungie cords at 65mph And you are very right in saying the hulls are much stronger nowadays. We life 35 foot vessels with six to 8 hydraulic skids on the hydro trailer that support the whole boat and if you go down to florida you will still find boats that are lifted with the front and stern eyes rather than a bunk lift. Yolo your right about lifting with eyes. I stopped in at a marine center to pick up rollers and they were changing out a trailer using a lift gantry . They hooked to eyes and lifted boat to back new trailer under it and make adjustments. I picked up some poly keel rollers and will change them next time I go out and adjust them banks in a bit at the front. Stoltz rollers were only about 10 bucks more than the rubber ones and have a metal spool all the way through where the rubber ones are only supported at the edges with plastic bushings. Also got a gunwale strap to stay safe as someone said it's technically unlawfull for highway towing not strapped down. Better safe than sorry.
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yolo
Ensign
Posts: 626
Location: Back to Manasquan Inlet, NJ
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Post by yolo on Sept 19, 2014 8:02:27 GMT -6
Also got a gunwale strap to stay safe as someone said it's technically unlawfull for highway towing not strapped down. Better safe than sorry. Glad you did this. I saw you write this on your earlier post but I didn’t want to keep going with this forum the way it was so I kept quiet rather than taking the forum in another direction again; i was very nervous for you though. I’m going to be forward here and tell everyone, I transport to put food on the table, an example of some of my work is 44,000lb steel coils and 40+ foot vessels of all kinds among many many many other things, so what I am about to say is not opinion. The first and foremost reason you need another tie down point is these winches break often and really will not stand all the force put on them from driving on the road after cranking it to the block too tight. Think about it this way, ever put something really heavy in the back of a pickup? Then your on the highway and hit a bump at a high speed and it shifts in the bed, all the time your thinking "thank god the tailgate is there or that would be gone." Same thing with the boat, winch snaps, you hit a big pothole at 65 to 70mph and the boat is gone or shifts to far back on the trailer or to one side then you have blown tires/leaf springs/shocks/axels, you get the picture. The strap keeps the boat down and in place. When you say “Gunwale Strap” are you talking about a load strap the your throwing over the boat and tie down (hook/secure ect) to the trailer on each side?
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